Copied from another group.
With permission
I am the owner of Sapphyre Nicotine. I have been in the e-cig and vape business since 2009. This post is a little long but hopefully it is informative for some.
In 2009 the FDA started seizing shipments of electronic cigarettes under the claim that they were drug delivery devices and therefore need to pass FDA approval prior to being marketed and sold in the USA. The industry was just starting out and this was a big blow. Shipments of product were not allowed to enter the USA. Credit card companies were not allowing ecig companies to work with them. It was not looking good for ecigs. A company called Smoking Everywhere sued the FDA and made the argument that ecigs should be regulated as a tobacco product since they contained nicotine which is derived from Tobacco. Njoy joined the litigation and eventually took over when Smoking Everywhere went out of business. In 2010 Njoy won the litigation and ecigs ended up being regulated as tobacco products. This was the best outcome of two evils. The FDA appealed the decision and lost that as well. That’s when the ecig industry really started taking off. Bigger players got into the market and eventually RJR, Altria/Philip Morris, BAT and other big tobacco companies came out with ecig products. They quickly became the dominant sellers in c-stores. The tobacco companies were happy selling tobacco and menthol flavors only. That’s what they knew and that’s what they were good at.
A few years later eliquids and open systems started getting popular. These products were not very popular in c-stores. That is when vape stores started opening up. They were mainly concentrating on open system (eliquids, mods and great tasting flavors). For a short time c-stores tried to sell eliquids, but they didn’t have the know how or the time to educate customers. C-stores were good at selling closed systems and vape stores were good at open systems.
To the uninformed public we are all lumped in as one industry --- electronic cigarettes.
In reality there are 2 different industries that are somewhat related.
A) The ecig/closed system industry: In the USA as of Sep 2019 is a $6.4 billion industry. It is controlled mostly by big tobacco companies. Juul (Altria/PM), Blu (Imperial Tobacco), Vuse (British Tobacco, formerly RJR), Njoy (only independent supplier), Logic (Japan International). 75% of ecigs are sold in C-Stores, drug stores and food stores. As a comparison, regular cigarette sales in the USA are around $80 billion dollars and about 75% comes from c-stores.
While ecigs sales increased at a 40% year over year rate, regular cigarette sales dropped by 7% year over year. That is a large number that is troubling to big tobacco.
The closed system industry sells primarily tobacco and menthol/mint flavors. If flavors were banned it would not impact the industry very much. The companies selling closed systems are not going to join our fight to save flavors. They have no monetary incentive to do so. In addition all of these companies are going to apply for PMTA. They are not going to sue the FDA and risk getting PMTA approval unless it greatly impacts their business.
The vapor/open system industry: In the USA as of sep 2019 is a $2.6 billion industry. It is NOT controlled by a few large companies. There are a lot of hardware and ejuice suppliers. It is mostly sold at adult only vape stores. $1.7 Billion sold at vape stores, $350 million in c-stores and $550 million online. Lots of suppliers, distributors, small businesses are part of this industry. They mostly sell flavored eliquid as opposed to tobacco and menthol flavors.
Having been involved with both the ecig business and the vape business, I can say that they are completely different. The vape industry is getting punished for crimes committed by the ecig industry. Unfortunately we are being lumped in as one. We are the easier one to target. We need to do a much better job getting this message out.
I would also like to make a point regarding zero nicotine flavors being regulated by the FDA. The reason our industry is regulated by the FDA as a tobacco product is because the eliquid contains nicotine. This is the only reason the FDA has authority over these products. Because zero nicotine ejuice does not contain nicotine, it is no longer a tobacco product. While the FDA is going to try and enforce regulation of zero nicotine ejuice as a tobacco product by using the “intent to use” rationale, that argument is simply not valid. The FDA will also not be able to regulate zero nicotine ejuice as a drug/drug device combination either. Ejuice with no nicotine does not cause a change in the body and therefore will not be classified as a drug. This is only my educated opinion. I am not an attorney and am not making any legal claims.
I hope this was somewhat informative to people that have not been involved with ecigs and vapes as long as I have. Feel free to add, correct if you have information that I missed.
Feel free to share
I vape tobacco exclusively. Unfortunately good ones are few and far between.
It just dawned on me that with the new potential disaster looming over flavors, the vape industry's mixologists must be frantically scurrying around inventing new tobacco mixes.
Hopefully soon the market will be flooded with better ones
Actually I think there might be a whole array of new liquids released masked as "tobacco". Liquids containing the usual flavors with a hint of tobacco that can't be tasted.
This could open up a whole new trend in the vaping industry.
Why ? - The many varieties of devices, flavors, and nicotine strengths still available in many places not contaminated by the political whores who apparently hate all tobacco so much that they are willing to jeopardize the lives of many thousands, if not millions, of ex and even current smokers, by killing off the vape industry in favor of their hypocritical agendas of tobacco control.
The fact that vaping tobacco has been proven to be less toxic than lit tobacco products is, to them, all the more reason to restrict and eventually eliminate it. {As has been done in India where all vaping is a crime}
Vaping has been and is still being used by many to wean their way off of nicotine by gradually lowering nicotine concentration - For others who do not want to quit completely vaping offers a much safer alternative to the toxic stew present in lit tobacco, especially cigarettes.
And the fact that vaping for flavor with zero nicotine is available - seems to give them all the more reason to outlaw flavors ?!??!?!
Do they know what they are doing you may ask? - Sure they do, and its all about money. Apparently they make more in tax revenues from old fashioned cigarettes - Still as tax rates go up everywhere on vape products, they may decide there is enough to be made to keep it legal. But don't fool yourself, it has nothing to do with 'saving the children'. In a nation where it may soon become easier, in some places, to buy marijuana than tobacco - I ask who is going to save the children from the political whores who can no longer keep following the mantra that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Who will save the children from them ?
And no I am not against marijuana legalization - but still must point out that tobacco, a mental stimulant, is being downgraded by a drug often used to get 'stoned'
Maybe this is what they want - Not a thinking population of voters - When a stoned population is easier to fool!
I was wondering what people think of such stores. I know most of us are against the very thought of tobacco now that we are vapers and I have seen people slam such stores in a couple groups I belong to.
I personally don't mind them because the one I go to is actively trying to turn their tobacco customers into vaping customers. But I know other people who see them as nothing more then cancer merchants since they also profit from tobacco.
One thing I found really interesting is how certain vendors will not do business with them. For instance, on the B&M's Facebook page, they said they were getting Five Pawns juice. I went to the store to buy some and was told that it will only be in their couple vape only shops because Five Pawns refuses to sell their liquid where tobacco is sold. This is a bit disappointing to me because if it wasn't for the tobacco store getting me to switch, I might not be vaping.
Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
Vaping is a multi-billion dollar per year industry. Once the USG reigns-in the industry, who will acquire the rights to it? Will there be more than one? Big tobacco? My money is on Amazon.
I smoked menthol cigarettes for 45+ years. Never cared for the taste or smell of cigarette tobacco, but I liked my menthol. When I tried Blu ecigs, the tobacco didn't taste like tobacco, it just tasted "meh". The menthol flavor was more meh with a mentholesque hint, and they were a freaking hassle. When I finally realized this weird vaporizer shop across the street from the hospital and next to the ambulance company actually sold E-cigarettes, not those things you steam up a room with Vick's Vapo-Rub, I went in and told them about my experience with Blu's and asked if they had anything better. I walked out with an eGo starter kit, some fruit flavors, and some menthol and mint juice to mix with them. Success! Got my menthol/nicotine fix and was able to put down the combustibles! For a year and a half I've been doing the same thing only DYI: Fruit and menthol and/or mint. Just had to have that menthol feel or it didn't do the trick for me.
Last week I got a bunch of new flavors from MFS. I mixed up some desert coffee and a key lime pie concoction, no menthol or mint, and it was GOOD!
Now if only somebody would tell this stupid spell checker there is no "u" in flavor!
Alright, so I was reading over a house bill that just passed here in Hawaii "with amendments"
Not exactly sure what the amendments are, so this could be irrelevant, but the concept still holds true.
The legislature imposes an 80% tax on "Tobacco Products" which they have conveniently bundled electronic cigarettes into.
So, what would stop a vape shop from selling all 0 nic juices, and adding nicotine as a separate purchase. For example, I buy a 30mL bottle of juice with zero nic, and then I buy enough nicotine concentrate to bump it up to say 6mg/ml
They sell me the juice for $15 (Hypothetical here) and sell me the nicotine for $1.00
So all that would get taxed is the nicotine because that's the only "Tobacco Product" (by their definition). So we only pay 80 cents in taxes rather than $12.80
If I ran a vape shop, this is what I'd be doing to prevent my customers from taking their business out of state, or worse going back to stinky sticks...
As far as I know, they would be hard pressed to define any of the electronic equipment as tobacco products, or juice without nicotine.
Is selling the nicotine as a separate purchase a viable strategy for defeating these ridiculous laws that are being proposed all over the country?
Received this email this morning...
On Monday, November 4, or early in the week, we are anticipating an announcement from the Trump Administration regarding FDA guidance about sales of flavored vapor products. According to recent reports, this guidance is expected to go as far as banning every flavor other than tobacco and menthol. In spite of years of communications from consumers and meetings with industry stakeholders, it is clear that officials remain unknowledgeable about how the vapor industry functions and what customers need.
Two flavors will not sustain independent vapor retailers and
will unnecessarily make vaping less attractive
to people who want to switch away from smoking.
The White House needs to hear from adult vapers and anyone who loves a vaper! A flavor ban won’t protect our children, but it will kill their parents.
We need to
Light Up The Switchboard
At The White House!
Ph: 202-456-1111
(Comment Line)
or
202-456-1414
(Switchboard)
On your call:
The operator will likely ask where they can direct your call
Simply tell them that flavored vapor products saved your life,
Tobacco and Menthol aren't enough to save small businesses or help people quit smoking; and,
tell them “We Vape, We Vote.
Be polite, be brief, and say thank you.
On hold? Here's something to do while you wait: Send a Message!
Share this Call to Action with your friends, family, and on social media!
My understanding of UPS and FEDEX decision not to carry Nicotine supplies to 'the Public' is their 'reluctance' to be burdened with record keeping requirements of signatures of Adults receiving Nicotine products under the new law. USPS decision is easy to understand as they are a 'Pseudo Government Agency'.
Just an 'observation'. Gas Stations, Convenience stores, tobacconists, and other vendors of actual tobacco products are NOT being 'burdened' with the same record keeping requirements at point of sale...and this appears to be a gap in the legislation violating the 'Equal Protection' philosophy the US has seemed to distance itself of late when making laws to 'save us from ourselves'...
I understand Business to Business shipments remain unaffected...its only business to end-users being burdened by this BS regulation.
Am I wrong in my observation?
Here in Oregon we have several bills that, if passed, would more or less make vaping illegal in its current form, and I know this isn't just happening here. I have to wonder how far they will be able to go with the bans and regulations, how "effective" they will be and how best to prepare for them. I think it's likely they will make high concentration nicotine solutions impossible to obtain for consumers, so at the least, it's probably a good call to stock up on unflavored nicotine, especially considering that whatever ejuice they do allow will no doubt be taxed to the point of being unaffordable.
The rest of their proposed bans would, in my mind (hopefully) be ineffectual in the long term. They want to ban flavored ejuice, but if the juice is zero nicotine, I don't see how they could get away with that since of course they can't ban PG, VG, or flavors, they just couldn't get away with that, yet, and the same goes for things like kanthal and cotton/rayon, too many uses outside of vaping.
They want to ban online sales from vape companies to our state which we all know would be a devastating blow to vapers. As for mechanical/regulated mods and other gear, what's to stop companies from selling them with a disclaimer that they are intended only for ornamental purposes, or for zero nic juice. What's to stop a vape shop from renaming itself "Functional Mechanical and Electronic Galleries" who operate on the assumption that people only use their products to vape zero nic juice.
It's insane to me that in a country that glorifies alcohol abuse, and has finally started to see the light on decriminalizing ........., that all this hysteria comes up about vaping, which is possibly the most benign chemical someone could enjoy (probably better for you than caffeine) and has given millions a way of breaking free from a habit that is far worse... you think the world is getting somewhere, but then something new comes out and the same old ignorance and fear rears its ugly head all over again, which is in turn milked by our politicians and backed by big tobacco, it all seems to be coming together for a perfect storm and it's not looking good in Oregon.
Your thoughts, what are you doing to prepare? What do you think is necessary?
I used to vape ecigs, NJoy and V2, and they worked ***really well***
Like an idiot (me), i started smoking cigs at a wedding, and... well, ex smoked, and I was out of something for the ecigs and it was a while before I could get it together to get more.
And since then, nothing has worked. There is no throat hit. I do not feel like I have gotten any nicotine. I got new liquid, new carts, new batteries... then a whole new set all at once.
I figured maybe V2 had fallen apart (and thet were sold or closed some time after that).
Since then I tried some ecigs from gas stations, a pod system, 3 more new liquids,
And finally a whole new starter kit (epuffer) and damn if it isn't the same. It's like smoking paper.
Why did the early ecigs actually work and now nothing at all works? Is this some vast cosmic trick? Are the pods and mods out to get us?
I just don't know what to do! I just really want not to smoke cigarettes bit I can't figure out why nothing is working!
And advice would be unbelievably appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!