Traditional Tobacco Vendors Appear Unaffected By New Record Keeping For Vape Supplies

Copied from another group.
With permission

I am the owner of Sapphyre Nicotine. I have been in the e-cig and vape business since 2009. This post is a little long but hopefully it is informative for some.

In 2009 the FDA started seizing shipments of electronic cigarettes under the claim that they were drug delivery devices and therefore need to pass FDA approval prior to being marketed and sold in the USA. The industry was just starting out and this was a big blow. Shipments of product were not allowed to enter the USA. Credit card companies were not allowing ecig companies to work with them. It was not looking good for ecigs. A company called Smoking Everywhere sued the FDA and made the argument that ecigs should be regulated as a tobacco product since they contained nicotine which is derived from Tobacco. Njoy joined the litigation and eventually took over when Smoking Everywhere went out of business. In 2010 Njoy won the litigation and ecigs ended up being regulated as tobacco products. This was the best outcome of two evils. The FDA appealed the decision and lost that as well. That’s when the ecig industry really started taking off. Bigger players got into the market and eventually RJR, Altria/Philip Morris, BAT and other big tobacco companies came out with ecig products. They quickly became the dominant sellers in c-stores. The tobacco companies were happy selling tobacco and menthol flavors only. That’s what they knew and that’s what they were good at.

A few years later eliquids and open systems started getting popular. These products were not very popular in c-stores. That is when vape stores started opening up. They were mainly concentrating on open system (eliquids, mods and great tasting flavors). For a short time c-stores tried to sell eliquids, but they didn’t have the know how or the time to educate customers. C-stores were good at selling closed systems and vape stores were good at open systems.

To the uninformed public we are all lumped in as one industry --- electronic cigarettes.

In reality there are 2 different industries that are somewhat related.

A) The ecig/closed system industry: In the USA as of Sep 2019 is a $6.4 billion industry. It is controlled mostly by big tobacco companies. Juul (Altria/PM), Blu (Imperial Tobacco), Vuse (British Tobacco, formerly RJR), Njoy (only independent supplier), Logic (Japan International). 75% of ecigs are sold in C-Stores, drug stores and food stores. As a comparison, regular cigarette sales in the USA are around $80 billion dollars and about 75% comes from c-stores.

While ecigs sales increased at a 40% year over year rate, regular cigarette sales dropped by 7% year over year. That is a large number that is troubling to big tobacco.

The closed system industry sells primarily tobacco and menthol/mint flavors. If flavors were banned it would not impact the industry very much. The companies selling closed systems are not going to join our fight to save flavors. They have no monetary incentive to do so. In addition all of these companies are going to apply for PMTA. They are not going to sue the FDA and risk getting PMTA approval unless it greatly impacts their business.

The vapor/open system industry: In the USA as of sep 2019 is a $2.6 billion industry. It is NOT controlled by a few large companies. There are a lot of hardware and ejuice suppliers. It is mostly sold at adult only vape stores. $1.7 Billion sold at vape stores, $350 million in c-stores and $550 million online. Lots of suppliers, distributors, small businesses are part of this industry. They mostly sell flavored eliquid as opposed to tobacco and menthol flavors.

Having been involved with both the ecig business and the vape business, I can say that they are completely different. The vape industry is getting punished for crimes committed by the ecig industry. Unfortunately we are being lumped in as one. We are the easier one to target. We need to do a much better job getting this message out.

I would also like to make a point regarding zero nicotine flavors being regulated by the FDA. The reason our industry is regulated by the FDA as a tobacco product is because the eliquid contains nicotine. This is the only reason the FDA has authority over these products. Because zero nicotine ejuice does not contain nicotine, it is no longer a tobacco product. While the FDA is going to try and enforce regulation of zero nicotine ejuice as a tobacco product by using the “intent to use” rationale, that argument is simply not valid. The FDA will also not be able to regulate zero nicotine ejuice as a drug/drug device combination either. Ejuice with no nicotine does not cause a change in the body and therefore will not be classified as a drug. This is only my educated opinion. I am not an attorney and am not making any legal claims.

I hope this was somewhat informative to people that have not been involved with ecigs and vapes as long as I have. Feel free to add, correct if you have information that I missed.

Feel free to share  

Alright, so I was reading over a house bill that just passed here in Hawaii "with amendments"

Not exactly sure what the amendments are, so this could be irrelevant, but the concept still holds true.

The legislature imposes an 80% tax on "Tobacco Products" which they have conveniently bundled electronic cigarettes into.

So, what would stop a vape shop from selling all 0 nic juices, and adding nicotine as a separate purchase. For example, I buy a 30mL bottle of juice with zero nic, and then I buy enough nicotine concentrate to bump it up to say 6mg/ml

They sell me the juice for $15 (Hypothetical here) and sell me the nicotine for $1.00

So all that would get taxed is the nicotine because that's the only "Tobacco Product" (by their definition). So we only pay 80 cents in taxes rather than $12.80

If I ran a vape shop, this is what I'd be doing to prevent my customers from taking their business out of state, or worse going back to stinky sticks...

As far as I know, they would be hard pressed to define any of the electronic equipment as tobacco products, or juice without nicotine.

Is selling the nicotine as a separate purchase a viable strategy for defeating these ridiculous laws that are being proposed all over the country?  

Ok, so here is an article from the Health governor.. (what documentation do i need exactly to prove its not harmful so i can get a permit to get my stuff)
Spoiler- I had my subtank & mvp 3.0 in my hand and thought im free from the sticky sticks, then disaster struck

KINGSTON, Jamaica – The Ministry of Health today announced that there is no ban on e-cigarettes contrary to earlier reports.
On Monday the Jamaica Customs Agency said that it had halted the clearance of electronic cigarettes from the wharf under instructions from the health ministry.
However the Ministry is advising that the product, which contains nicotine, is not banned but requires registration and a permit to be imported into the island.
Acting Permanent Secretary, Dr Kevin Harvey said that under the Food and Drugs Act the regulation of the e-cigarette which contains a liquid, nicotine-filled replaceable cartridge is in keeping with the requirements for other nicotine products.
“Nicotine products such as gums and patches have always been registered in Jamaica and a permit issued before they can be imported.
“The Ministry does not presently have any requests or submission of information from any individual or company to register any e-cigarette product. It therefore means that there is currently no approval for importation of these products in the island,” he said.
Dr Harvey explained that over the past three years approximately four formal requests were made for permission to import e-cigarettes. However, the applicants failed to follow up their requests with the documentation required to process the applications.
“As the Minister of Health indicated, we are willing to have dialogue and work with any supplier which now has products at Customs or in the process of shipment to have the requisite registration completed and permit issued,” Dr Harvey said.
He assured that the Ministry of Health stands ready to register e-cigarettes once the appropriate documents are presented in keeping with standard practice and the requirements of the Food and Drugs Act.  

Thanks to @440BB for starting the first thread, but it got out of hand and was closed.

But this is an important topic and I believe we should have an active thread about it as it is still currently underway. And as events unfold (and possibly change) we should be discussing it.

Lets try this again without so much emotion and political beliefs such that it changes the thread's topic and deters other from participation. And maybe "reptilian shape shifters" might be better-off discussed on some other forum or in the "Outside" section of ECF.

And remember, this is a shipping ban, nothing to do with the FDA deeming regulations - there's a thread for that.

Effective dates for the following major carriers...

FedEx - March 1, 2021
DHL - March 1, 2021 (unclear)
UPS - April 5, 2021
USPS - after March 22, on the date the final rule is published, no later than April 26, 2021. There seems to be some major conflict among what various sources believe as to when this effective date will occur. However, it is for sure, as @440BB stated in the original thread, after March 22 and no later than April 26.

Note that all carriers accept USPS are not actually disallowed by law from transporting vape supplies, they volunteered not to, most likely for a combination of reasons - requirements are strict and probably not profitable (but politics most likely plays a role, too).

Here is a link to the legislation that was passed that made this shipping ban possible.
Text - S.1253 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Preventing Online Sales of E-Cigarettes to Children Act
Notice that all vape is being banned for shipment by USPS as it states "any other substance", not just nicotine vape.

All online retailers that have sent notice about this seem to be saying they will refuse to take new orders after March 22. The dates each retailer has set range from March 23 to March 27 from what I have seen, so time is running out fast to order supplies online.

There is talk by some of the larger retailers that they have secured a new carrier that will be focusing on major urban areas. It remains to be seen if it will fly and if it will be a viable solution.

After this, barring some other major nail in the coffin, where B&M stores cannot get inventory, the only way to get anything will be in a local B&M storefront, where selection will be limited and priced high, and it will be rare to find nic base stocked for DIY.

As @440BB said in the original thread... "Time is near to get creative or be fully stocked up!".

But we are getting too close now that you don't have much, if any, time to make an informed decision on what hardware to buy and stocks are running out. As far as atomizers go, rebuildable atomizers WILL be your salvation as we enter into the vapocalypse.

But if you have enough gear and/or if money is tight, you should focus on nicotine base so you can DIY your own juice, unless you prefer store bought juice and are willing to vape whatever your local vape shop has in stock at any given moment. A list of nicotine base and glass bottle suppliers can be found here...
List of US Retailers Still Shipping 100mg Nicotine Base | E-Cigarette Forum

Please keep in mind that person to person (consumer to consumer aka C2C) shipments are still allowed but the current postal regulations severely restrict it. A summary of the C2C tobacco products postal regulations (well actually, only cigarettes and smokeless tobacco) (as I understand them) are as follows, but this could possibly change.

- Total package weight must be no more than 10 oz.

- Must be shipped using face-to-face service. In other words, must present package to postal worker at USPS counter. No pickups allowed. Proof of age and identity of sender must be verified with govt issued photo ID.

- Must be sent with "Express Mail" (I take this to mean Priority Express? - expensive, minimum $25 but more if Adult 21+ Signature service is required to be purchased - not clear on that. You will be paying retail rates since you have to buy this postage at the post office, so it might even be closer to $30+ all tolled just to ship one small package).

- Shipping label must bear real, full names of both shipper and recipient.

- Outside of package must be labeled with wording "PERMITTED TOBACCO MAILING – DELIVER ONLY TO AGE-VERIFIED ADULT OF LEGAL AGE"

- USPS will not deliver package to recipient. Package will be held at local post office for pickup and successful pickup will require proof of age and identity of recipient, verified with govt issued photo ID. Recipient must sign PS Form 3849.

- One person cannot mail more than 10 such shipments a 30-day period (meaning, you will likely be put in a database in order to track your identity and how many C2C tobacco product shipments you made in the last 30-days, which is why you have to ship it via a trip to the post office).

DMM Revision: Treatment of Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco as Nonmailable Matter​
 

I very recently had up for auction on eBay a group of my old Kanger products for sale. Imagine my surprise, as I just received a notice from eBay stating they had just cancelled my auction, explaining that my items "violated eBay's policy towards e-cigarettes". I had no idea eBay was so opposed to the sale of vaping products, so I called customer service. The lady explained that, as of March 30th 2015, eBay would begin to systematically remove any and all listings related to e-cigarette commerce, since the position of the Federal Government was still unclear with regards to e-cigarettes.



Yet another witch hunt from ignorant fools.

I told the lady that, while I understood eBay's position in light of the gray areas, and that I certainly was not upset at her personally, I was still extremely disappointed in their decision. I asked that my opinions become part of the record that might find their way up to the powers that be at eBay. I told her that the vaping community is an ever-growing one, and eBay's decision to disallow vaping supplies will have a significant impact on them.

I was neither abusive, nor belligerent, nor profane in my discussion with her. I was polite and calm. And yet, she was in an obviously uncomfortable hurry to get me off the phone, leading me to believe that I had struck a nerve.

I have purchased from eBay Kanthal wire, Japanese cotton, ceramic tweezers, a butane torch, replacement glass tanks, and other various accessories over the past two years. This latest decision by eBay just reinforces my opinion that, despite the fact we are in the 21st century, we continue to live in the Dark Ages.  

I was wondering what people think of such stores. I know most of us are against the very thought of tobacco now that we are vapers and I have seen people slam such stores in a couple groups I belong to.

I personally don't mind them because the one I go to is actively trying to turn their tobacco customers into vaping customers. But I know other people who see them as nothing more then cancer merchants since they also profit from tobacco.

One thing I found really interesting is how certain vendors will not do business with them. For instance, on the B&M's Facebook page, they said they were getting Five Pawns juice. I went to the store to buy some and was told that it will only be in their couple vape only shops because Five Pawns refuses to sell their liquid where tobacco is sold. This is a bit disappointing to me because if it wasn't for the tobacco store getting me to switch, I might not be vaping.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition  

In an email from Innokin today, was a link to today's Vaping Weekly by Benedict Jones. In addition to more news about Canada's up-coming restrictions on most flavored vape products...the following was included, about Washington, DC:

"On Tuesday, June 15, The District of Columbia Council voted to prohibit the sale of flavoured vaping and tobacco products (including menthol cigarettes and cigars).

The bill will be voted on a second time Tuesday, June 29, but it is expected to pass this stage without significant change. After the second vote, the bill must be approved by the mayor, and pass a 30-day congressional review period before the law takes effect.

The bill also covers synthetic nicotine products, which have, at times, been suggested as a way of side-stepping legislation which restricts “tobacco products” in the U.S. Since synthetic nicotine products are covered by the bill, it would appear that other next-generation nicotine products, such as pouches, will be affected by the flavour ban."

So, little by little it continues....  

No wonder they breed potential politicians at ebay. This is a snippet of the text contained in a email a friend of mine got over the weekend:

Due to strict government regulations, eBay doesn't allow the sale of most tobacco products. This includes cigarettes, cigars, herbal cigarettes, and smokeless tobacco. E-cigarettes also aren’t allowed on eBay. We realize e-cigarettes don’t contain tobacco. But due to a lack of globally consistent or clearly established regulations for the sale of these items, eBay has made the decision to not allow the sale of e-cigarettes or their components.

So, since its NOT regulated as of yet, they`ll regulate it for us??? And yet the "other stuff" paraphernalia runs rampant on ebay. That and other things you would`nt want to try and explain to your 6 year old. Like that knitted sweater for a pickle.
God Bless ebay, they`ll be the Vaping Heroes for us all and help make our decisions for us, cause we are just too slow to understand or comprehend the nature of our actions.
Also, you can buy ANY flavor of juice (especially the "other stuff" flavor) you want on ebay, as long as it is zero nic. But what are you going to vape it with? You can buy the juice, but you cant buy the vaporizer. HOW is this LOGIC agreeable to anyone?


The most scandalous entity on Ebay, is Ebay itself.  

I have been mixing my own Juice for the last 1-2 years since my state (NJ) banned all flavored E-juice sales. None of my favorite sellers would ship to me anymore.

I did not stock up. I did not know this postal ban was a thing until 2 hours ago when I noticed the wholesaler I purchase from removed most of its products. Even if I did, the stuff will only last me about 2 years. With the way things are, these kinds of laws rarely get reversed once enacted. I thought the 21 age for buying tobacco products would never catch on and be repealed, but look where we are now. No matter how many angry letters you send or how many signatures you get, nothing will happen.

And so, I am left thinking about what I can and can not get in the future. VG and PG will always be around in bulk as it is not only used for vape juice. The flavoring is the same flavoring used for brewing and baking, so no issue there. The liquid nicotine, specifically the extract and not the salt, is where I question the future availability (the salt is almost definitely out of the question).

Are there any other uses for liquid nicotine or is this it for DYI?

Edit: Apparently VG and PG will also be banned, at least by UPS (link below). I guess nicotine solution is also out of the question there.

UPS: Shipping Tobacco - United States.  

I was starting to get a little worried that this obsession with vaping and sitting here reading and studying and searching online for the necessary supplies was making me much more sedentary than I would like. However I realised this evening that coil making is keeping me fit. I keep dropping these minute parts which, on our tiles floors, have a habit of rolling under furniture and disappearing off the face of the earth. So there I am, several times a day, on my hands and knees, face down on the floor looking for these fricking bits and bobs. LOL that's more exercise than I've done in years.