How Are You Preparing For The Vapocalypse?

Alright, so I was reading over a house bill that just passed here in Hawaii "with amendments"

Not exactly sure what the amendments are, so this could be irrelevant, but the concept still holds true.

The legislature imposes an 80% tax on "Tobacco Products" which they have conveniently bundled electronic cigarettes into.

So, what would stop a vape shop from selling all 0 nic juices, and adding nicotine as a separate purchase. For example, I buy a 30mL bottle of juice with zero nic, and then I buy enough nicotine concentrate to bump it up to say 6mg/ml

They sell me the juice for $15 (Hypothetical here) and sell me the nicotine for $1.00

So all that would get taxed is the nicotine because that's the only "Tobacco Product" (by their definition). So we only pay 80 cents in taxes rather than $12.80

If I ran a vape shop, this is what I'd be doing to prevent my customers from taking their business out of state, or worse going back to stinky sticks...

As far as I know, they would be hard pressed to define any of the electronic equipment as tobacco products, or juice without nicotine.

Is selling the nicotine as a separate purchase a viable strategy for defeating these ridiculous laws that are being proposed all over the country?  

Copied from another group.
With permission

I am the owner of Sapphyre Nicotine. I have been in the e-cig and vape business since 2009. This post is a little long but hopefully it is informative for some.

In 2009 the FDA started seizing shipments of electronic cigarettes under the claim that they were drug delivery devices and therefore need to pass FDA approval prior to being marketed and sold in the USA. The industry was just starting out and this was a big blow. Shipments of product were not allowed to enter the USA. Credit card companies were not allowing ecig companies to work with them. It was not looking good for ecigs. A company called Smoking Everywhere sued the FDA and made the argument that ecigs should be regulated as a tobacco product since they contained nicotine which is derived from Tobacco. Njoy joined the litigation and eventually took over when Smoking Everywhere went out of business. In 2010 Njoy won the litigation and ecigs ended up being regulated as tobacco products. This was the best outcome of two evils. The FDA appealed the decision and lost that as well. That’s when the ecig industry really started taking off. Bigger players got into the market and eventually RJR, Altria/Philip Morris, BAT and other big tobacco companies came out with ecig products. They quickly became the dominant sellers in c-stores. The tobacco companies were happy selling tobacco and menthol flavors only. That’s what they knew and that’s what they were good at.

A few years later eliquids and open systems started getting popular. These products were not very popular in c-stores. That is when vape stores started opening up. They were mainly concentrating on open system (eliquids, mods and great tasting flavors). For a short time c-stores tried to sell eliquids, but they didn’t have the know how or the time to educate customers. C-stores were good at selling closed systems and vape stores were good at open systems.

To the uninformed public we are all lumped in as one industry --- electronic cigarettes.

In reality there are 2 different industries that are somewhat related.

A) The ecig/closed system industry: In the USA as of Sep 2019 is a $6.4 billion industry. It is controlled mostly by big tobacco companies. Juul (Altria/PM), Blu (Imperial Tobacco), Vuse (British Tobacco, formerly RJR), Njoy (only independent supplier), Logic (Japan International). 75% of ecigs are sold in C-Stores, drug stores and food stores. As a comparison, regular cigarette sales in the USA are around $80 billion dollars and about 75% comes from c-stores.

While ecigs sales increased at a 40% year over year rate, regular cigarette sales dropped by 7% year over year. That is a large number that is troubling to big tobacco.

The closed system industry sells primarily tobacco and menthol/mint flavors. If flavors were banned it would not impact the industry very much. The companies selling closed systems are not going to join our fight to save flavors. They have no monetary incentive to do so. In addition all of these companies are going to apply for PMTA. They are not going to sue the FDA and risk getting PMTA approval unless it greatly impacts their business.

The vapor/open system industry: In the USA as of sep 2019 is a $2.6 billion industry. It is NOT controlled by a few large companies. There are a lot of hardware and ejuice suppliers. It is mostly sold at adult only vape stores. $1.7 Billion sold at vape stores, $350 million in c-stores and $550 million online. Lots of suppliers, distributors, small businesses are part of this industry. They mostly sell flavored eliquid as opposed to tobacco and menthol flavors.

Having been involved with both the ecig business and the vape business, I can say that they are completely different. The vape industry is getting punished for crimes committed by the ecig industry. Unfortunately we are being lumped in as one. We are the easier one to target. We need to do a much better job getting this message out.

I would also like to make a point regarding zero nicotine flavors being regulated by the FDA. The reason our industry is regulated by the FDA as a tobacco product is because the eliquid contains nicotine. This is the only reason the FDA has authority over these products. Because zero nicotine ejuice does not contain nicotine, it is no longer a tobacco product. While the FDA is going to try and enforce regulation of zero nicotine ejuice as a tobacco product by using the “intent to use” rationale, that argument is simply not valid. The FDA will also not be able to regulate zero nicotine ejuice as a drug/drug device combination either. Ejuice with no nicotine does not cause a change in the body and therefore will not be classified as a drug. This is only my educated opinion. I am not an attorney and am not making any legal claims.

I hope this was somewhat informative to people that have not been involved with ecigs and vapes as long as I have. Feel free to add, correct if you have information that I missed.

Feel free to share  

I mean I know why and I am right there with them opposing it. I am glad that many have prevailed (at least for now). When I say "why?" I mean that if I were a vape shop owner, I would be looking to liquidate all of my inventory long before May 2020, because at that point my shop will only have 3 or 4 disposable, non-refillable, over taxed pieces of junk to offer with just 2 flavors (tobacco and possibly menthol).

Are they just ignoring the writing on the wall or are they oblivious?

I mean obviously, for some, the bans came out of nowhere and they did not have time to liquidate, and maybe the legal fees were not over-the-top... but from this point on I would be looking at May if I were them and I would get out while I still can (or I would have already done so by now). As sad as it is, I just know that there are going to be all kinds of fantastic sales in April and early May.

Come May 2020, odds are that there will no longer be any vape shops in the US and it looks like online sales will be a thing of the past with the exception of from out of the country (if they will even ship here) and then you're taking the chance of it being confiscated by the FDA.  

Im currently on vacation in a European country where it is illegal to sell ejuice containing nicotine.

I of course have my vape gear and my own ejuice with me, as that is not illegal.

The current anti-vape hysteria and fake news is not just contained to the US, as I have been reading about it and seeing it on the news here also.

With the way its being reported about in the news, youd think there was some huge epidemic happening, and vaping is the worst thing to come along since ebola or aids.

Ive gotten mutiple evil eyes from people here because I continue to vape like I always have, and I also make sure to blow extra super sized clouds whenever I encounter anybody who is giving me a disapproving look or stare, while I am smiling back at them and vaping.

As for the current fake news hysteria and propaganda, it is my understanding that the cases involve a substance that is not allowed to be mentioned on this forum.

I happen to know a lot about that substance and I also know that there is an awful lot of counterfeit and homemade carts which are on the market, and yes, some of them can definitely be dangerous, as all sorts of suspicious and dangerous ingredients can be included. Nobody has any idea what is inside those counterfeit carts

That however has nothing at all to do with vaping, or with people who vape and use regular ejuice.

If somebody drinks gasoline, then yeah, they might feel unwell.

As for me, Ill continue to laugh at fake news and the people who believe in it, and Ill continue to vape just like I always have.  

I was thinking the whole situation in many countries that vaping is straight up banned or illegal....and also countries like USA that is not that extreme but still many regulations going on and anyways we all know the big tobacco companies and what they try to do.

I am sure tho that vaping won't be stoped...u can't stop vaping and all the big tobacco do is to try buy some more time for them cause they know that cigarettes are in their end..

I don't know how long this will last but I am sure vaping will make cigarette smoking obselete and it will go very big...

Europe claims they have a plan to end tobacco use until 2032 or something like that for example....maybe that happens and it would be good cause it's for everyone's good.... but u can't just fight vaping and let smoking still exist...

Vaping will be back and for good....the people slowly start accept it and learn it cause honestly imagine how many smokers are out there and how many vapers...while vaping is much more enjoyable objectively...

We the people didn't support vaping enough...
ok maybe we the vapers did but I mean the majority out there don't......people are scared and they don't like to change their habits easy....even if it's for their own good.

I know politics are corrupted and all that....but some of us live in democracies maybe not perfect but still....if all people wanted to stop smoking and switch into vaping to make their life better then they couldn't stop us...
Worst case they would do it to get votes like they usually do with everything they do... not that they care for us...

So yeah vaping will go very big the next year's..
 

I do not know if anyone else has posted about this topic, so here is mine. I recently tried to order a new tank and juice from a vendor on Taobao ( big online store in China), and was met with, "search not found", over and over again. I sent a Wechat (Chinese Twitter) to a vendor that I know in another city and was informed that the Chinese government had banned the sale of ALL vaping products. The reason? Well to stop children vaping of course. Apparently there is an epidemic (no pun), of kids stealing their parents credit cards, ordering hardware and juice and then hoping their parents do not intercept the parcels. Forgive me for being incredulous with this regard. So at a hand wave the Country that benefits the most from the vaping industry bans it from their own country! So vapers in the West think yourself lucky that your governments can not just railroad vaping as much as their sponsors would like them to. I am coming up to 11 years of vaping, going to be hard to keep going when a 30ml bottle of juice is Wechat selling for about $25 plus postage. Especially as I can buy a pack of MB red for just over a $. So I wonder how long I will be able to vape as I sip on my Corona V.  

(I know this doesn't apply to all of us, but for me it sure does.)

I mean.. look at us. Spending so much time here on the forum reading about tips and tricks, what's your vape? what is the juice you vape? etc etc. I haven't joined a forum for 15 years or so. The last time i was on a forum i was a 16 year old boy, trying to figure out life and the best way i knew how was being anonymous on the internet asking and pondering life's questions.. like "*** am i supposed to do here on planet earth?"

Nowadays i watch daily video's about vaping. From health concerns to indoor smokers, from conspiracy theories (tobacco companies) to Rip Trippers. Outside the digital life whenever i'm home i either vape, try new juices, building another coil, wicking and make my girlfriend try a new taste oh.. almost forgot the most expensive part, checking out webstores for... whatever i think might be missing from my collection

Don't get me wrong though, i love it. It's fun, it's interesting, it's a bit of a nerd thing i guess. Trying to find the perfect vape. It's like a drug (and i know drugs, i like them.. from time to time with moderation offcourse
nicotine is a drug, caffeine is a psycho active drug, alcohol and offcourse all the illegal ones. From xtc to heroine, one worse then the other)

But i find it very interesting that since i started vaping that i somehow had this need to find fellow vapers and talk about it. Haven't had that feeling for years, to be part of something.

I also never ever attended a demonstration for anything in my life, but today in a couple of hours from now i'll be in Utrecht vaping with other vapers against the ****ty little regulations the EU forces on us vapers. I do this for multiple reasons;

1) i truly hate that whoever says i cannot do/buy/use something *as long i'm not hurting or bother someone else with it*
2) it pisses me off that the elite, may it be a person or the bigger companies use unfair tactics to get whatever they want
3) to meet fellow vapers and talk about... vaping..

Anyway yesterday night in bed i thought this and was wondering how you guys/girls feel about it  

tomorrow in Massachusetts I was told by Gary at MVS during the 4 month ban of vape gear while investigating why people in the US have gotten very sick or died from vaping NON VAPING related marijuana oil products.

So find your friends out of state or get online tonight to order your coils and juices.

Maybe the investigation should be why people in other countries haven’t been getting sick and why this is JUST happening now after a couple of decades of people vaping e juice. Could be something to do with the government and politicians trading in a multi billion dollar industry and let’s not forget the lobbyists errr donors.

And yes I emailed and called my knee jerk reacting guv Baker to express my embarrassment that one of the states with the highest quality Universities aren’t asking for FACTS.

Big Tobacco (and Pharm) and the governments reason of losing $7 billion dollars to people switching from known carcinogenic cigarettes to less harmful vaping products.

As more bans get put into place and more people get sick or die from contaminated black market ejuice and THC products.

Just as planned so they can point their fingers and scream - we told you it was dangerous!!  

Why ? - The many varieties of devices, flavors, and nicotine strengths still available in many places not contaminated by the political whores who apparently hate all tobacco so much that they are willing to jeopardize the lives of many thousands, if not millions, of ex and even current smokers, by killing off the vape industry in favor of their hypocritical agendas of tobacco control.

The fact that vaping tobacco has been proven to be less toxic than lit tobacco products is, to them, all the more reason to restrict and eventually eliminate it. {As has been done in India where all vaping is a crime}

Vaping has been and is still being used by many to wean their way off of nicotine by gradually lowering nicotine concentration - For others who do not want to quit completely vaping offers a much safer alternative to the toxic stew present in lit tobacco, especially cigarettes.

And the fact that vaping for flavor with zero nicotine is available - seems to give them all the more reason to outlaw flavors ?!??!?!

Do they know what they are doing you may ask? - Sure they do, and its all about money. Apparently they make more in tax revenues from old fashioned cigarettes - Still as tax rates go up everywhere on vape products, they may decide there is enough to be made to keep it legal. But don't fool yourself, it has nothing to do with 'saving the children'. In a nation where it may soon become easier, in some places, to buy marijuana than tobacco - I ask who is going to save the children from the political whores who can no longer keep following the mantra that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Who will save the children from them ?

And no I am not against marijuana legalization - but still must point out that tobacco, a mental stimulant, is being downgraded by a drug often used to get 'stoned'

Maybe this is what they want - Not a thinking population of voters - When a stoned population is easier to fool!  

Does anyone know if this sept 9th pmta thing will effect diy and if it does will the liquid nicotine cost go up? I'm thinking I should buy the nic now n worry about rest of diy kit later as many questions surround this new regulation ..Anyone know will it effect diy? Cause my emails are loaded with pmta blowout sales from major online vape shops..if there wasn't a ban here in NY I'd stock up! NY not only has flav ban but nearly all out vape ban! The shops I used to get juice at won't even sell me coils anymore! And their actually allowed to sell me vaping hardware but find it easier to just write "we no longer ship to NY" So some shops will n some shops won't..I've really had to dig around to get coils etc..that's why I'm starting diy but this by ban effected that too! River supply won't sell me 1 thing,Liquid nicotine wholesalers aren't sure n keeps saying they,ll get back to me n never do,liquid barn seems like they will,Delosi will n nude nicotine will..oh n bull city will but they don't have the nic I need.I'm pretty set on river supply smooth salt nic,LNW doesn't mention smooth or hit,Delosi just emailed me and said they never heard of that and nude nic has armor salt smooth but a lot more expensive than river supply or LNW. I've researched a lot about it because if gonna be making 25-50 mg salt nic I wanna make sure its top quality,clear n not peppery at higher MG's.I've ordered EJUICE salt many times n can notice a difference in the quality n even the buzz I get from diff eliquids. So should I play it safe n get the nic now ( somehow) or do you guys think it might not effect future costs?? Big tobacco really has us over a barrel with VAPING as akot of politicians have stocks in tobacco n Bg tobacco is very powerful n seems to have alotta sway over the government, meanwhile they all know its much safer n literally a life saving product and is the most affective way to quit smoking while still feeling like your still smoking but with a million times better flavor,evaporation or lingering odors..its all about $$ as it always is.I've never smoked but lost nearly entire family to lung cancer from smoking so I have a very strong n passionate feeling about vaping..I enjoy it and its not the nic that causes these deadly respiratory conditions- its the tar n poisons left in the wake of combustible tobacco. But we all know this but they continue selling ciggs everywhere with lil to no hastle,alcohol too and their using teen vaping crisis as their reasons n flavors! It already has adult regulations,especially ordering online you need a credit card and most vaping adult items don't apply to teens nor do they even know how to use these apparatus. Get rid of the 10$ disposables packed with high mg salt nic n sugar..Boom prob solved, now leave us adults be n let us vape if we want cause teens are gonna do what they want anyway.. I'd rather they not vape but compared to drinking,smoking n drugs( which seems lately easier to get) I'd much rather they vape but their not 21 so who's at fault for that? So ban the entire vaping industry kills 2 birds 1 Stone (no more teens vaping n no more worthy adversary to smoking) I'm sick of the control system and its all coming to a head especially in the US- I won't get into politics but that "IS" what this is all about.Send our damn second stimulus checks n leave us adults to decide for ourselves to vape or not weather its on a 15$ pod or a 150$ mod or a 35$ pod mod..There's so much to choose from but might not have any juice to put in them if we keep going in this direction.There's enough people unemployed now without going after vaping too!!! It relieves my stress to vape just like ciggs do for many people n right now I'm pretty damn stressed! Thank u for any advice or helpful comments about decent nic salt purchase guys..sorry to rant